Hydrogen Gods and the Nieuwe Elektrische Boot

75 Comments / Cadilac Escalade, Charge Station, EVCCON 2012, J1772 / By

This week you get a twofer as I didn’t post a blog with last week’s show. I was gonna…. and….see….what happened was…..see….

Actually, it is embarrassing. THe sheet with the data on it for the follow up test still lays next to the motor. Every day I was going to bring it home and do the blog. Still there.

So we don’t know WHAT happened. Actually we did get our answer. It just wasn’t a very dramatic or satisfying one. It appears that 57% of the gain in efficiency comes from the material, and 43% or thereabouts comes from the split brush design. So you need it all.

I also have yet to receive my order of Helwig brushes, so we can’t make them available. A couple of viewers have already asked about ADC motors. Yes, Helwig Makes them. No we’ll probably not carry them.

We did a lot of wiring on the Elescalade this week but I didn’t shoot any of it. It’s just wiring. The starter to the START input and the J1772 circuit to another Soliton input and a bunch of 4/0 cables that were a pain to make up. I can spinet the motor, but there are problems.

The worst of the problems is the tach signal. The Soliton insists we don’t have one. I’ve tried 1.5.1 and version 1.5.2 of the software and it just doesn’t pick up the tach. This is VERY frustrating as we tested THAT tach on THAT adapter plate with THAT soliton a dozen times on the bench. In the car, with the motor turning, no input according to the log program. I’ve got a little hand held oscilloscope I’ve bought that is a marvel. Of course I don’t know how to use it. It has about seven buttons on the whole thing and no clue what they do. I’ll have to actually read the book. I detest that. Males should NOT have to read instructions.

Maybe my pull-up resistor is bad. We do have three magnets now instead of two. But the Soliton has pulse settings for both 3 pulses per revolution and 6 so that can’t be it. IF it is a bad sensor, which as I said we tested numerous times, this is horrifying news. The entire motor assembly, and everything we’ve stacked on top of it, would have to come out. I’d rather give myself a root canal with a wine corkscrew.

Somewhat more serious is a glitch with the ECU. With the pickup hooked up to our reflector ring, the ECU cycles the throttle position back to off about once a second no matter the accelerator position. Reviewing the Cadillac manual, I find that in comparing the crankshaft position signal (RPM)to the manifold pressure, if they don’t match, the system purportedly throws a Type A DTC. I’m not certain, but I think that means it sets the throttle plate to minimum. I’m GUESSING here. But it would appear we do need the manifold pressure signal.

Fortunately, the MAP sensor puts out a pretty simple voltage between 0.2v and 4.5v indicating manifold pressure. I’m thinking we can take the MOTOR CURRENT output and scale this 12v pwm signal to a 0-4.5v dc that might correspond. MAYBE if I do it with a potentiometer voltage divider, I can get it to spoof close enough to the expected signal to make it work.

The system also uses mass air flow and indicated engine coolant temperature in some calculations. But they appear to result in TYPE B DTCs and I don’t’ think those are as serious. I plan on putting the engine coolant temperature probe in the moutning bolt hole on top of one of the motors to get a digital read of motor case temperature on my normal display. But the MAF signal is a 2000-9000 hz 5v square wave. I can do this, but it would take an old function generator or something on voltage controlled oscillator mode. Kind of complicated.

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So we spent a lot of time this week on wiring and mysteries and troubleshooting and there’s not a lot to show. We’ll work some of this out and hopefully be able to recap a bit next week

For this weeks’ show I let our viewers bail me out. We had a visit from Mike Orr of Cincinnati who has made a J1772 EVSE box. He sold one for $650 and didn’t really make much on it so he wants to ask $750 or $790 for them. Problem is, it is a 25 amp system and it would have to be MORE to get it up to 70 amps, which would be useful. As there are readily available EVSE now at hardware stores for $1000, this is kind of a loser. But we tested his box on the Escalade and it worked fine. It looks great. It’s hell for sturdy. And it’s quite small.

Andrew McClarey did some of our video graphics when we upgraded our intro. He had a nice build of a Fiber Fab Valkyrie he stole on eBay. Well, it’s gotten nicer. He originally did this in lead and was trying to convince me lead was where it was at. I of course was trying to convince him that LiFePo4 was where it was at and that lead was dead. As it turns out, he has a brand new set of CALBS in the car now and WOW does it make a difference. He and a buddy are also working on a BMS that does have kind of a cool looking display.

Royce Wood of course continues on his Couger. But he’s also doing a conversion for a friend of his. Royce, but a camera. I don’t like your camera. But I do like the conversion. Royce has advised us on some of the intricacies of the Cadillac. He has operated an auto repair service for many years. And he’s now getting into conversions. Where did you hear about this model – three years ago? It’s happening.

In last weeks episode I talked about maybe doing a boat at some point. Anne Kloppenberg of Amsterdam was here at EVCCON last year and is just a HOOT to be around. This guy just spews energy and enthusiasm. He’s done pretty well installing solar panels in Amsterdam. But he was talking about converting an old Glastron speed boat to electric drive. THIS week he sends us some video of the first run. It DEFINES the concept of the EV Grin. Literally WOOH – WOOH MAMA – LOOKY WHAT I BUILT.. as he speeds across the water at 53 km/hour with the sound of the prop, but NO engine sound at all.

This is cool for us. But cooler for him. I’d like to have an electric boat here on the Mississippi. But in Amsterdam, they are very down on you spilling that oil slick from your gas or diesel engine all over their canals. Quite environmentally conscious there as well. The only CO2 they want in the air is that that comes from burning Marijuana. They actually made CIGARETTE smoking illegal there, but EXEMPTED Marijuana smoking from the law.

And so Anne faces a serious business opportunity in making electric speed boats. The demand could be huge.

Finally, I riff a bit on hydrogen. You will be surprised to learn that my first love was not electric cars but hydrogen. Hydgrogen may be God and I am certainly of the religious orders surrounding it. It has one proton, and one electron. It is unity. It is the lightest element, and it comprises 75% of the mass of the universe, unless you buy into dark matter theory. Yes, 75% of everything is hydrogen. IT is the most reactive substance in the universe. The party girl of elements, it will combine with ANYTHING.

Therein being the rub. You have to PRY it lose. And it becomes a heroic loser as a fuel for personal transportation. I mean HEROIC. I got in a riff with some truly off planet types on LInkedIN that turned into a huge personal attack because I wouldn’t buy into their hydrogen promotion efforts. So it was game on and I was slashing back. But it took me back a few years and my utter fascination with hydrogen.

I still think it holds the secret to all understanding of the universe. I just don’t think I want to be in a car with it. Too many steps. It is, to say the least, inelegant in personal transportation.

EVCCON 2012. We’ve finished our first discount increment as of June 1. I am delighted to report, and a bit frightened to contemplate, that we have 125 registrants for the convention scheduled Septermber 26-30 and 29 cars. As we had a total registration of 128 and 28 cars INCLUDING ALL OF MINE at last years event, we are already larger than we DID last year. Today being the 3rd day of June, 2012 Year of Our Lord.

The basic math is 375-400 attendees and 50-60 cars. But my trade show experience indicates something else. We always said you cannot have a trade show for 300. It’s the number you can’t have. If you get to 300 industry insiders having a meeting, there will inevitably be 700 others show up to watch them. That’s why you can’t have 300. You can have 100. You can have 200. You can have 250. You could probably have 275. And then you can have 1000. But you can’t HAVE a convention of 300.

This is like King Liunitis and The Battle of Thermopylae. Yes, there were indeed 300 Spartans. But what gets forgotten is that there were also 700 Thespians that came to watch.

As 125 of you discuss your plans to attend, the cars you’re bringing, the side meetings you’re going to set up, etc. It just causes the 700 to want to come watch all the more.

Fortunately Brain saw this coming and has put us in the ShowMe Center Arena. ßo we’ll have lots of room. But I don’t really know where this goes in 2013.

See you there.

Jack Rickard

http://EVTV.me

75 thoughts on “Hydrogen Gods and the Nieuwe Elektrische Boot”

  1. John Hardy

    Great quote from my 16 year old on sighting an Mitsubishi iMiev: “why do all [OEM] electric cars look like lunch boxes?”

    Maybe one suggestion for Nissan would be to follow Tesla’s lead and do a limited edition electric GT-R or Z car.

    Oh and agreed on hydrogen fuel cells. Seriously silly.

  3. Andyj

    John,
    Like this? http://youtu.be/XFDCgp_p-1Y For track. Or this road concept?:-
    http://youtu.be/1twJVqFE5Ts

    Jack, One cracking good show this week. The contributors were amazing. Are any bringing their wares to the EVCON to talk about designs and aspirations for our future market? *Hint*.

    On hydrogen, you have made a ‘God’ point. Those who think it might be a source of power… The religion of the brainwashed. You covered the bases well. I’m very glad you’ve spoken about it. Its a fools errand.

    I’ll end with a thought on your tach. Can’t it light an LED? Solder two back to back for those days your most useful future test equipment see’s a bit of DC 😉

  4. Jeff Southern

    Fun show this week. I liked the segment on Hydrogen. It always sounds good until you have to actually make it work. I loved the Electric Boat segment.

    In the spirit of “User Week”, I have a few things to add. You can read about my little electric fishing boat project Here:

    http://www.bassfishingnetwork.com/articles/phelix.html

    It is a little out of date, I built the motor(s) back in 2000. It has been used nearly weekly since then and still going strong 12 years later. I even produced and soled them for about a year before Briggs & Stratton saw my work and decided to produce them themselves. (Of course they have quit making them)

    I am a little tired today. I just got back from Florida with my 1974 VW Thing. It is a little rough around the edges, but should make a good EV conversion candidate. It was not fully restored like the one Jack bought, but it was about 1/2 the price.

    My wife actually asked to go with me on this trip. In 24 years of marriage, she has never showed so much interest in one of my car projects. (I think She is angling for a speedster)

    I hope to have it running by EVCCON, but I am not sure I can do all of it in 3 months. I want to have the transaxle rebuilt and a new (higher) ring and pinion installed and that might eat up a month alone….

    Anyway great show!

    1. GreenEV

      Nice little outboard. I saw one once that a guy built down in San Jose area that used a 6″ ADC motor and a larger lower unit (wanted to buy it, he did not want to sell). Thought the idea was killer. Trolling motors on steroids. 🙂

      Pete 🙂

  5. Dr. Righteous

    I too did the math oh hydrogen. When I saw you’d need a tanker trailer to store enough hydrogen gas just to get you a few miles down the road, I abandoned the idea quickly. Abundance does not make up for energy density (or rather the lack thereof). The only way to make it viable is to extract it in realtime. And the energy used to do THAT would be better used to propel the vehicle.

    If we could simply get these folks away from futile efforts to make ineffective alternative energy sources better, and focus their efforts on liquid fluoride thorium reactors, we could truly change the world.

    I believe we’re at the dawning of the rare-earth age. Whoever gets there first, wins. They win it all. It scares me to think it will be China or India, instead of the U.S…

    – Doc

  6. JSmithy

    All hail Jack! Thanks for your shows.

    I like the simplicity of your disconnect, but if it gets pulled there could be a worry or two.

    A spark could ignite any ethyl acetate vapor. It did spark in your video, and it is conceivable it would get pulled in a situation where a battery is venting or has been squished and squirted electrolyte.

    Under 2000 Amps, it might start a plasma arc and not stop conducting.

    What about doing a similar idea but outside the battery box? John Wayland has pulled his emergency disconnect under high current — it gave a bright flash but no other ill effects. It is outside the battery box.

  7. Randy C.

    More than a year ago I read a story about the California Air Resources Board (CARB) funding the construction of 40 some odd hydrogen fueling stations. The price tag worked out to $3.9 million each. When you extrapolate to the 20,000 stations required for hydrogen to be as convenient as gasoline the amount becomes horrendous. That money has to come from someplace and that place is our wallets.

    I ran some math on my fuel consumption situation and it worked out to $13.00 per gallon, or something like that, just to pay for the facility. Plus you will have to add on operating expenses like employees, electricity, overhead, taxes etc. Things every business has to add to the price of every item sold in order to stay profitable.

    I’m also told that carbon clogs up the membranes used in Hydrogen Fuel Cells (HFC’s). So any hydrogen you wrest from fossil fuels has to be super scrubbed to get rid of any carbon contamination. But since HFC’s get the oxygen from the air which has carbon dioxide in it they are going to clog up anyway limiting the HFC lifespan to about 30,000 miles.

    There has already been a Hydrogen Fueling station explosion. It happened near LAX and was caught on a airport security camera. The delivery truck driver survived. How they expect Mr. Joe Average to keep the safety protocols in place during refueling is beyond me.

    When you combine all of that with an overall energy efficiency that is equal to or even worse than gasoline you come to the conclusion “it just ain’t worth it”.

  8. Jack Rickard

    The conversation revolved around some coming exciting blue sky advances in both the fuel cell itself and portable reformers that could convert natural gas, for example, to hydrogen and the reformer was small enough to be carried onboard the car.

    My position was that it was fatally flawed conceptually, and so how WELL you do a stupid thing has no impact on it BEING a stupid thing to do. This problem is not at the edges, it is at the hart of the premise.

    I love hydrogen. I LOVE T Boon Pickens CNG plan. I just want him to run that natural gas through a turbine, convert it to electricity, and then send it to me over our EXISTING infrastructure. We’ll take it from there thank you. Don’t worry your pretty little T Boon head over what we do with it in our cars.

    Jack Rickard

    5. Michael

      Wanna know how lost the state of California is? http://cafcp.org/RoadMap

      They want to spend $68 million to build 68 hydrogen filling stations in SF and LA. Wish they would spend the money on DCQC, or better yet just spend their money on fixing the stupid regulations limiting DCQC like the demand fees over 20kW and not being able to “resell” electricity.

  9. Perin du Bulu

    Commenting on last week’s episode, I am covetous of your coconut plantation. The knife switch is brilliant and new to me. The inertia switch needs to be mounted near the slap switch in the cab: I wouldn’t want a car which can be disabled with a little fender tap by brigands. Kept hoping for a white board lecture possibly incl. dielectric constants as related to temps. Best bet for hydrogen is to be encapsulated in fire-resistive/suppressive aerogel for lift in hybrid airships. The secret ingredients of the brushes reminded me a bit of this http://www.museum.com/ja/showdia/id=2685

    “…Here, the artisans had discovered a certain clay, ‘procured from mountain springs and untouched by human hand’, which, when superheated at ‘temperatures that exceeded those of the seventh ring of hell’ in a cauldron of boiling Grecian oil, acquired anti-magnetic properties…” 😉

  10. Doug Ingraham

    Good Summary about Hydrogen Jack.

    I think hydrogen is an excellent fuel for Rockets. The fact that it has the highest energy per unit of weight makes it very good for that. Unfortunately it is bulky even when you go to the enormous cost and effort of liquefying it. Assuming it was cheap about the only other practical uses as a fuel I can come up with would be large ocean going ships, and perhaps trains. Any small vehicle like an 18 wheeler would simply use too much space to get any reasonable range.

    1. Andyj

      Hydrogen (+ oxygen) in rockets is used to make electricity and water, not thrust. The same unit that blew apart Apollo 13.

      Burning H2+O IMPLODES 1900x into water vapour. Any consequently feeble expansion comes from the heating of another gas or vapour within the burn.

    2. Doug Ingraham

      I am not sure what you are saying. The second and third stages of the Saturn V used L2H/LOX and so did the main engines of the space shuttle. I suspect the main engines of the Saturn V didn’t use Liquid Hydrogen simply because it cost so much and was such a pain to deal with. There is nothing else added to the mix. The thrust comes from the high velocity expulsion of superheated steam which is the combustion product.

      The Apollo 13 accident was tracked down to ruined insulation inside one of the LOX tanks which sparked during a stir causing the tank to rupture. Nothing to do with hydrogen or a fuel cell.

    3. Dan Frederiksen

      AndyJ, you are quite wrong. hydrogen and oxygen is indeed used for rocket propulsion.
      the space shuttle’s main engines were such. saturn V had hydrogen lox propulsion too.

      it’s among the most weight efficient rockets but somewhat impractical. it has specific impulse around 450. spacex’ petroleum engine is around 300 which is also quite good however.
      armadillo aerospace’s methane engines were down around 170 which is too poor for serious work.

    5. Andyj

      first stage:
      “The booster will burn 203,000 gallons of RP-1 (refined kerosene) and 331,000 gallons of liquid oxygen (LOX) in 2.5 minutes.”

      No liquid hydrogen here.

      The second stage CLAIMS PUBLICLY to run on H2+0 tanks. They didn’t. The real McCoy was too poisonous to burn in the lower atmosphere. I suggest you try this at home folks.

      Dan, tell us all. How would you rivet up a tank that holds over 300 bar pressure, over 10 metres in diameter and as tall as a skyscraper while being shook at 30g’s and pushed upwards at 5g?

      Even IF it could be made, the hydrogen will simply leak through the metal casing and cause embrittlement.

      Yes, a spark in the O2 tank. Good idea! The previous time the same lunacy killed Gus Grissom and crew.

    6. Dan Frederiksen

      Andy, Nasa is part of the greatest betrayal in the history of mankind and keep very great secrets and tell many lies. but pretending that hydrogen is a good rocket fuel is not part of it. think a little dude.
      for rocketry they don’t use extreme pressures, they make it cold. it’s cryogenic fuel. that’s why there is ice on the outside and vapor flows from the vents when the fuel boils off.
      even if there was a lot of leakage it wouldn’t matter in the short time

    7. Andyj

      Dan,
      I suggest you make some nice and dry browns gas and light it in a closed container. Watch it implode. The result is 1900x less volume. Not 1900x more. I guarantee you a water jet did not fly out of the back.

      I suggest you read the wiki on Hydrogen storage. It’s garbage in rockets.

    8. Andyj

      It’s effect comes from the vigorous release of heat energy where it creates expansion on the release of extra oxygen/material. In effect the more perfect the explosion, the less thrust.

  11. JSmithy

    Jack I have heard some of the Dodge diesel guys do something to lockup the torque converter at low rpm, for towing. Maybe if you look for towing stuff you can find something that locks up your torque converter at low rpm.

  14. dbc105

    Jack, I had a questions about batteries or rather what happens in different events. For instance, say I have an S10 with a Warp 11 I pull my small fishing boat to the river with. While backing into the water I lose the brakes and the truck goes under water. Or in the case of Anne’s boat, maybe the bilge pump quits and the hull fills with water. I know I am going to lose my electronics. What I want to know is about the safety with the electricity. Any ideas as to what would actually happen? I am guessing all the voltage would go to ground seeing as how the river is grounded, but all I have is a guess. What if you are in the truck when it rolls into the river on the boat ramp? Also, enviasystems.com, has anyone seen these batteries or have an opinion on them?

    1. Jack Rickard

      I’m not sure just what the batteries will do if you try to play submarine commander in a pickup truck. My sense is the batteries will be alright. It does pose a bit of a safety issue.

      Try that out and let us know how it comes out.

      Envia systems is doing some interesting battery work. But very unobtainium and for many years I fear. They have been drumming up publicity looking for partners. But no product is quite as eminent as they claim. They’re a long way from a production line and in fact do not intend to actually produce the cells themselves. They are hoping to license IP to others by demonstrating prototypes.

      Jack Rickard

    2. Randy C.

      Submerging plastic cased LiFePO4 cells wont hurt them. They are already air tight to keep the electrolyte from evaporating. You can’t go deep with them. The action of the pressure relief valve on top is the limiting factor. As long as it can maintain the internal environment you’re fine. The biggest problem is what happens outside the cell when they get wet. Corrosion, short circuits, etc. are going to be the problems in such an event.

    3. dbc105

      LOL, yea don’t guess I’ll try it out. Watching the video of Anne’s boat is what brought it to mind. I live in Florence, Al and grew up on the Tennessee River and over the years I have seen a few vehicles end up at the bottom of the boat ramp. Just wondered if you didn’t get out in time would you get a charge.

    4. Doug Ingraham

      Re: the batteries going under water.

      Clean water is not conductive. However your river, lake or ocean is far from clean. It really depends on just how conductive the water is. There wont be any kind of event across the battery terminals themselves. The only place where you would have something happen would be where the high voltage leads are close together and at that point you could have steam generation as the water boils. Unless you are touching one of the battery terminals there would not be a shock hazard. Your body and skin resistance is going to be lower than that of the water so the current will not pass through you. With fresh water I would not expect any event at all. Eventually the battery would run down but depending on a lot of factors this could take anywhere from as little as several hours to as many as several weeks or even months. Tap water is clean enough that generally what you see is several hundred thousand ohms. Even a 300V battery would only see a load of 0.003 amps at 100000 ohms of resistance. Throw a little salt into the water and things change.

    6. Anne Kloppenborg

      Good stuff Doug and Randy! Our gut feeling was about the same: it’s not so bad really. Even so we have taken a few ‘extra’ precautions, which may or may not make sense. do make us feel better though:
      1. No where near salt water (yet) 2. Pack- is in the bow with Fuse and Shunt, pack+ in the stern with Fuse and final contactor to controller, dcdcd, charger. 3. Batt boxes are splashproof but not waterproof yet, monitoring if we dont need to implement some temp control first. 4. 90 cells are broken into groups of 15 (<50V nominal) a contactor between each group. 5. dcdc and charger inputs ARE close together, but do each have their own rated fuse.....

      So as for High voltage it really comes down to the Soliton terminals. We could ask the evnetics guys to dip one in a bath while running say 200kW. I’m sure Jeffrey would love to help us out! 🙂

      We will be installing a Siemens PL7 control unit soon. One of the functions is having a series of sensor inputs (tilt, impact, submersion) coupled to a timed response: 1.controller brake input, 2.master contactor, 3.pack contactors.

    8. Andyj

      Imagine the issues if your ev has to wade a ford or you get caught in a storm downpour.

      I like the idea of mounting the electrical items in a sealed box. It would be cool if you need to service the thing and its easily unplugged where you can work on it in space and comfort.

  16. Warren

    Fascinated to see the most amazing vehicle ever produced in that video. Not the luxury sedan, the bicycles! Over 3500 miles on my electric bicycle, so far this year, 79 charges. Went 98.75 miles,wide open, on one charge, round trip, for BBQ. Retired last week, so shooting for 10K miles this year. Faster than I was in my twenties. Hell, faster than Lance Armstrong. LiPO4 is great stuff!

    Warren

    2. Warren

      Dual 26″ wheel, recumbent, 73.5#. Twenty five pounds of that is a 12S, 30 Ah pack. MAC 350W continuous, 4.8-1 geared hub motor, run as mid-drive through 8 spd rear der. Pulls 10-12 Wh/mi at 20-22 mph average, running WOT all the time. It is hilly here so that average includes 9 mph, 15% climbs, and miles of 30-35 mph in between. Believe me, that is like 100 mph on a MC. 🙂

    3. MARK YORMARK

      Warren,
      Clever on your use of the MAC 350W a 300 r.p.m. motor as a mid-drive.
      My guess this motor has about a 13 tooth sprocket on it going up to approximately 44 tooth free-wheeling crank sprocket which is 13 divided by 44 equaling .295 times 300 r.p.m. which equals 87 r.p.m which is near perfect cadence for pedaling the crank.

  17. Don Zacher, aka Zak

    The electric speed boat video was very interesting. Several years ago some friends took the mast of a Hobicat and set it up with a small Honda outboard and a couple lawn chairs on the deck, it made a great lake cruiser. An electric boat like that with batteries stored in each pontoon and an electric outboard would be great as well. The pontoons would serve as a watertight battery boxes.

  18. nickkkkk

    People might like to see this Tesla video. It’s the Share holder meeting held on 6th June. There are a few interesting things in it. There is a video they have not released before showing cars actually coming off the line. You see more than in the 2 previously released videos. There are also some very interesting hints by Elon about the supercharger network.

    Anyway I thought people here might be interested in it if they haven’t already seen it. I imagine Jack as a share holder may have already seen it. Here it is:

    http://www.teslamotors.com/2012shareholdermeeting

    -Nick

    1. palmer_md

      Thanks for sharing. Very interesting. Looks like I’m going to need a “supercharger” to ChaDeMo converter for my Leaf. Elon alludes to the network we discussed earlier. Only with a 300 mile car he might need half the number of stations which puts him closer to $30 million. Can’t wait until the big event on the 22nd.

    1. Warren

      “Point of interest… In the UK our laws don’t need pedal actuation to make the motor run. Unlike many EU zones.”

      Here in the US, bikes are pretty much invisible, so you can ignore the laws. That said, I am a bicyclist, so I built mine without freewheeling cranks. I can ride motor only, but I look pretty silly with my legs hanging down, and the pedals going around. Keeps me from getting lazy. 🙂

    2. Andyj

      I think you have it good Warren. Here we are limited to 250W (supposedly) and 15mph. A lad on Youtube “liveforphysics” has a 10Kw motor, 5KWH bike he races motorbikes with. …. Errr, wow!

      Recumbents are heavier but much better on flat roads. Sadly in England where I live such roads are something we only hear about so lightweights will rule on 250W.

      I’ve bought and playing with a Cycle Analyst using a 250A shunt and thinking its the dogs danglies.

    3. Warren

      Yes. The Cycle Analyst is amazing. I have seen them used on motorcycles, and cars too. That “lad” is the battery pack designer for Zero Motorcycles. He knows EV’s, but is just a little too fearless for his own good. 🙂

    4. Warren

      Good recumbents are only 25% heavier, 25# vs 20# for an upright. When you load up a bike with motor, controller, batteries, you are looking at 45-75#. That extra couple pounds is swamped by the aero advantage, even on 250 watts. The recumbent riding position is about 10% less efficient for riders putting out maximum power. That is about 50 watts for a world class athlete, more like 15 watts for most of us. Again, diluted to insignificance by the aero advantage. Electric assist, and the recumbent position are a match made in heaven.

    5. MARK YORMARK

      Warren,
      Did you see my reply up the page….
      Warren,
      Clever on your use of the MAC 350W a 300 r.p.m. motor as a mid-drive.
      My guess this motor has about a 13 tooth sprocket on it going up to approximately 44 tooth free-wheeling crank sprocket which is 13 divided by 44 equaling .295 times 300 r.p.m. which equals 87 r.p.m which is near perfect cadence for pedaling the crank.

    7. Warren

      Mark,

      No use for a freewheeling crank, just dead weight. I am either pedaling, or coasting. The motor has its own freewheel built in. Good guess, but 15T is the smallest that will bolt on. 53-15 gives about the same ratio.

  22. Nabil Hanke

    Thought I’d share something a bit off topic but on the mark.

    I was invited to the Iowa Renewable Energy Association Expo to speak on conversions. So I also got a booth hoping to find like minds. And did.

    In short, question number one is: How much? And, a muted surprise that it can be done – little amazement.

    The presentation was a packed room of over 20 in the audience. Got a handful excited about Evccon. Corrected everyone on the superiority of lifepo4 – got a few wanting a supply source. Btw, you can do a 40kwh lead S10 – just need coil overs, 10 ply tires, 65psi, and willingness to reduce your bed to 2′ deep. Yes, he’s interested in lifepo4 now.

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